Missional Space - Latest Comments

Re: Way of the Master….really?

Daniel — Fri, 14 May 2010 08:43:41 -0000

I woudl have to say yes... if incentives are used, and it genuinely brings one persont Christ it would be worth it... one soul saved IS worth offering somethign to get them in the door.

Re: About

Kimberly — Thu, 22 Apr 2010 06:43:25 -0000

You have a quest for authenticity and desire to get to the basic truths and practices of Christianity. Thank you for serving God and being transparent in the process. I do want to raise a couple points about your response to working in a missional organisation. Jesus did occasionally hold crusades, most memorably the sermon on the mount, he did pass out things, including food to thousands of people, and he did have a preferred method, storytelling (parables).

You're right, Jesus connected to people in authentic, challenging ways. While sometimes we need to change actions and attitudes for a chaging world, and other times traditional methods are the effective for reasons shown time and time again, I praise God that he calls us to serve him in such diverse ways to a diverse world created by him.

Re: Has American Christianity jumped the shark?

ad2010 — Thu, 15 Apr 2010 15:29:04 -0000

So now some of you can admit...as in reality it is and isn't...

That preaching Christian Doctrine in the states can actually be MORE difficult than somewhere where they have flat out rejected Christ or haven't heard about Him yet.

Many in the USA believe that they can know enough information and/or experience spiritual moments and then call ourselves a "Christian".

Many will say on that day...Matthew 7:21

Re: Has American Christianity jumped the shark?

ad2010 — Thu, 15 Apr 2010 15:21:16 -0000

Fred: You said:

"I'm a Christian because I believe the God that created this world is real and that he actually cares about us. "

{I do like to keep His Glory His...I get in trouble for it but I am answerable to God.}
{You are a Christian because of the mercy God granted someone like myself who does not deserve salvation and is not owed salvation.}
{I deserve hell.}
{He allowed me to hear/see/know the Truth.}

No one is a Christian because "they believe the God that created this world is real and that he actually cares about us. "

This may be a minor difference but striving to enter in because the gate is narrow and the path is broad that leads to destruction...is one of many [cautions] that God has placed on us so we don't take our leisure.

Everything else Fred is right on.

I believe everyone here knows this. I am not perfect...AT ALL!!!

I do know when the Gospel is more locker room talk where we let down or modify the truth to make a different point.

Re: Has American Christianity jumped the shark?

Guest — Thu, 15 Apr 2010 12:40:57 -0000

Grady, we're in agreement here. I wrote about this same feeling on my blog, post entitled "Programme Overload". Two thoughts grip me constantly: 1) I honestly don't want to return to the States to "do" ministry that way ever again, and 2) I fear this American style of evangelical ministry is slowly creeping over here to Western Europe--they seem to not realise what this style has led to currently in the States. In my opinion, the methods have started to fail, so there's no reason to begin to replicate them over here as I feel they'd eventually fail here, too.

Re: Has American Christianity jumped the shark?

Fred — Thu, 15 Apr 2010 11:15:50 -0000

What I always value is the quality of the teaching. I think many churches have not put enough emphasis on core teaching. The services are often "dumbed" down which is unfortunate. I am not a Christian because of what I do not know. I'm a Christian because I believe the God that created this world is real and that he actually cares about us. I think too much effort is put into not offending. We don't go to church because we think we are perfect and expect to be made feel comfortable with our sin. We understand grace but also understand that grace is potters wheel on which we give ourselves to Christ and let work the hands of God.

I'd like to hear more admonitions speaking to the corruption of our world calling us to follow Christ and rise above it. There is not nearly enough chastisement. The church has let the open thievery of our times be cast as charity which it is not. Jesus did not say steal from the rich and give to the poor. He did not say chain the minds of those you disagree with so that you never have to hear a word of disagreement. Yet those mindsets are very common. He also did not tell Christians to set passive while the money lenders defile the temple.

There is a lack of reality in so many churches. Christ is treated like a prop and grace like an excuse not to address the hard issues with which people deal. People don't come to church to be rubber stamped saved to feel better about their often wretched state. They come to church in search of something more no just Christianity coated in candy and sweets.

Re: Has American Christianity jumped the shark?

ad2010 — Thu, 15 Apr 2010 09:51:17 -0000

Sorry, I was someone who thought: bring em' to "the revival", bring em' to "the Billy Graham Crusade", bring em' to "Heaven's Gates/Hell's Flames"...usually with few showing up.

Til' recently, I never "went out into all the world to preach the Gospel to every creature".

Now, I totally know He has sent those who are His.

His Way. For Him. and By Him.

May "I" never loose that focus.

Re: Has American Christianity jumped the shark?

PBGilbert — Thu, 15 Apr 2010 00:50:41 -0000

I appreciate you stating what I thought was obvious. Yes, God is the main attraction. My point is that we are to be the church to the people, not just bring the people to the church.

Re: Has American Christianity jumped the shark?

ad2010 — Wed, 14 Apr 2010 15:34:03 -0000

A church service can bring someone to where they know the Lord, but it's not the main attraction in God's plan....WE ARE.

Well, actually HE is...but you are correct in our compartmentalizing where we do everything.

Should the Gospel be preached anytime the opportunity allows or God allows? yes

Should we only fellowship in a gathering/building? no

Should we never bring an unbeliever to a service or a get together? of course not

Lastly, should we do what the world does to bring people to Christ? well...that deserves more than a simple yes or no.

Either that or give up technology altogether.

God uses what He will but not at the expense of His Nature.

Re: Has American Christianity jumped the shark?

ad2010 — Wed, 14 Apr 2010 15:08:21 -0000

Seems like it. Only recently has God shown me this in His Word. Probably the main reason we are here.

We take more time fighting for the rights to preach the Gospel.
Defending the Bible.
And announcing prayer, worship, the gathering of the saints, that we have not a clue what is happening.

We don't reach out to the lost to preach the Gospel.
We don't read the Word as if God has not only written it but speaking to us through the Bible.
and everything else...we have made into "our" image and we love it. (or lust it.)

We hit the jukebox with our fist and it plays the song we want...America...God does not work like that.

It's time to seek the One who is seeking us His Way...

How will we know...His Word...His Spirit...His Life.

God is not obligated to give 1 second of His Mercy to 1 soul on this planet.

Don't loose sight of Him nor His work. They are 1 in the same.

Re: Has American Christianity jumped the shark?

toddimus — Wed, 14 Apr 2010 15:03:34 -0000

American Christianity for the most part has jumped the shark, losing focus and a biblical context from which to realize real church in the local sense. God tends to reserve for himself a remnant though wouldn't you say? And the reason you're asked why you don't attend a local church is because you can't BE the church without being connected to the local church. Without being connected to the local body, you're just a big toe. You're always welcome to make the drive up to our church on Sundays. No shark jumping here :)

Re: Has American Christianity jumped the shark?

PBGilbert — Wed, 14 Apr 2010 14:46:22 -0000

The reason why we have the hipster service and a "culture of cool" is because A LOT of churches still consider the church service to be the place we want everyone to come to "get saved." We do all our church marketing to get people to come to the service. If we can just get them there, God'll do the rest! We have failed to realize that the church service is to be a congregation of believers where we meet to be taught and to discuss and to share our burdens with fellow believers. The church service is not meant to be the end all-be all of "witnessing." We should show the love of Christ to the people outside of the church, so that we can share about the relationship we have found with Him, and actually have it mean something to whomever we share it with, because they have already seen that love in us. A church service can bring someone to where they know the Lord, but it's not the main attraction in God's plan....WE ARE.

Re: Jesus gets your heart, you get an Audi

ad2010 — Wed, 14 Apr 2010 13:24:25 -0000

Would I love to win a car...yes...

Would I trade it for the truth?

Not on my life.

Is God worth sharing? Is His Salvation so secondary that we need to change up to other excuses to have "church".

Let's go share the Gospel and make disciples.

God Bless

Re: Jesus gets your heart, you get an Audi

rastis — Tue, 13 Apr 2010 14:36:21 -0000

wow... right when we hit bottom, we somehow manage to find a new low.

Re: there is life beyond the 10/40 window

Arnaud — Fri, 09 Apr 2010 12:58:02 -0000

I am French and studying theology in USA right now. I had first heard of the 10/40 window last winter and recently I heard of that agian 1-2 months ago in the school I am studying. Honestly at the beginning it cuts deep when you hear that the main focus is that area. So far I have seen what is happening in the 10/40 window and I do not want at all to deny the importance of the mission there. Because of my work I was in Afghanistan and I know that the Gospel is the only thing that could stop that madness. By that you can see that I am aware of others serious issue in the world.
At the beginning I was angry, I admit it. I thought first "so that's it. In Europe we are on our own.As long as you are not poor, killed, openly persecuted or imprisoned because or not of your faith, no one pay attention so you do not exist." Afterward I prayed, hang on to the word and realized that God designed that situation. So far I have to learn here what will be useful back home and do not count on other support than my brothers and sisters in France. That is the situation and I do not want to mourn or weep on that : it is Lord's doing and he is in control ; He will glorify his name in a mighty way because we are few.
Still, I wanted to know more concerning the reason and how the 10/40 window appears in 1990. What I discovered is that numerous data (geographic, political, demographic analysis, access to the gospel and to ressource linked to it, percentage of believers in these area, etc.) were gathered, synthesis and translated in a graphical way that made manifest the 10/40 window.
Recently I read books concerning new paradigm church and how some pastors are using marketing tools, data analysis to find the "best" place to start a church and to "guarantee" a growth rate. My goal is not to talk about this but I was stoke by the similarity o the tools employed between the 10/40 window and the church marketing way.
The goal of the 10/40 window is FAR from these fast-growing marketing style church, the goal of the ultimate goal 10/40 window is to bring the Gospel to the lost of that area and that is good. The Lord told us to go and to make disciples from any nations so do not question the goal. I do question the tool.
Second, I have a simple question : where is the place of the Holy Spirit in the that ? Does he has inspired the 10/40 window ? Certainly it helps to realize or just to discover the situation outside of our countries. Again the Lord told us to make disciples from every nations. Every. And in God there are no partiality. I am glad that there was American missionaries that came to France really prompted by the Lord. They didn't check the 10/40 window, there were checking God's will and were carefully listening to the Spirit.
Third, in Europe the situation is so serious that a pastor who is working with missionaries and pastor claimed during a conference that "our missionaries are sowing (the word) on asphalt, looking for cracks". This is a fair picture.
Americans usually think that Europe is Christian. I discovered since I am here that the word Christian is used for any kind of group, rarely for genuine followers of Christ. For example, I checked out today to know how many people that could be seriously considering saved in France. So far it does not go beyond 4% (There are 62.000.000 inhabitants in France, one of the largest population of western Europe. Do the math). Beyond the figures, the situation is that no one really knows who is God. In fact I am surprised when someone asks me a relevant question concerning the Gospel or makes a relevant critic concerning the Gospel. Technically when I am talking with another French people, the knowledge of the Gospel is ground 0. I cannot speak for other European countries but I can reasonably assume that the situation is similar.
Now I realize that I do not have to try to convince anyone to come in Europe mission field. My prayer is that the Lord calls servants that are willing to obey him and to go, wherever it is. I rather want to see a man/woman coming and saying "I came because the Lord told me to come" rather to hear "I know there are some much need, it is why I came".
Last, evangelizing Europe is hard and a really slow growing ministry. It takes years to see result, sometimes a decade. I heard many stories an commentaries form people and missions boards. I was talking with a sister once and she told me she wants to go to Spain. The reaction of her parents was as follow : "Why do want to go to Spain ?? Go to Africa, there are many people who are waiting for you !" It seems to me that some missions boards are results oriented ; it is part of the American culture to have things done. It is good a thing to be focus and dedicated to your task, I do not question that.
So what is the problem ? Fulfilling the expectations of my mission board concerning another country, expecting the same results than in my country... that does not work. We have seen many American missionaries coming in France. Usually they leave or blew up after 2 years or because they were discouraged (yes, France is depressing, I have to be honest) or because the mission board was not satisfied with they results. Hudson Taylor I think understood that if he wanted to evangelized Chinese people, he had to live like them. He was not task oriented while being able to be really well organized. He was not looking for results but to sow the word in order to reap a harvest.
So I am facing the situation with that mindset : is there people really Spirit driven that are willing to go in any foreign country and bring the word because the Lord asks them to do so ? Does powerpoint and databases replaced the work of the Holy Spirit ? Am I seeking recognition of others or am I willing to go in place where I become an anonymous, stripped away of the academic recognition that I might have, to do God's will? To become nothing in others eyes but faithful servant in God's eye ?

Re: Jesus gets your heart, you get an Audi

Guest — Thu, 01 Apr 2010 12:22:49 -0000

I think I'm gonna be sick...though it fits nicely with the Prosperity Gospel that's so popular. I'm surprised they didn't say something like, "Jesus says take up your cross; we're giving you a car to carry it in!"

Re: What is “Missional”?

charldebeer — Wed, 31 Mar 2010 01:40:38 -0000

Hi Grady

Charl from South Africa, I love this. Throught books by Len Sweet I learn the ACP vs MRI why and I believe that we need to be more MRI and less ACP. We need to go and be.

bless you
charl

Re: Jesus gets your heart, you get an Audi

jeremyhitt — Tue, 30 Mar 2010 10:22:00 -0000

Wow... we've lost contact with who(m?) we are to be... yet another example of how we have removed the power from the cross and resurrection of Jesus.

Re: What about Saddleback Sandy and Sally?

ad2010 — Wed, 24 Mar 2010 09:36:54 -0000

Please forgive me if this is a site that is for the lost.

My passion of what I wrote was for the leaders who may think we need to "lighten up" on the call to do the work of an evangelist. To seek and save those who are lost. To make disciples of all nations.

Imagine you are recruting those in the military who will not only be asked to save and protect others but also be a strength and encouragment to you.

Do you want a soft gospel message that may not communicate the seriousness of what was done by God through Christ on the Cross?

Re: What about Saddleback Sandy and Sally?

ad2010 — Wed, 24 Mar 2010 09:26:33 -0000

A lesbian couple, very much in love...

What is our response to a man who comes into your church with a 10 year old girl who are "very much in love"?
What is our response to a man who is openly in an adulterous relationship with one of your congregations' wife?
What about someone who is a known extortioner?
What about someone who is breaking God's commandments and (key here) has been comfronted with the Word of God in Love (unless the Word of God which does often show a loving rebuke is not considered love in people's opinion) since they are there to either join a club and be accepted "just the way they are" and not lead to see any error and brought to the Love of Christ that He took the wrath of God just for kicks.

What if a heterosexual couple, very much in love, has started attending your church. They have joint acocunts, health-car, insurance policies, and even like the same sports teams.

What happens if they are not born again and die tomorrow...

Both couples will stand before God in judgement...

But "if" they or some are born again and die tomorrow...

All will stand before God in judgement...

Please read:
Ezk 3:17 "Son of man, I have made you a watchman for the house of Israel; so hear the word I speak and give them warning from me.
18 When I say to a wicked man, 'You will surely die,' and you do not warn him or speak out to dissuade him from his evil ways in order to save his life, that wicked man will die for [a] his sin, and I will hold you accountable for his blood.
19 But if you do warn the wicked man and he does not turn from his wickedness or from his evil ways, he will die for his sin; but you will have saved yourself.
20 "Again, when a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does evil, and I put a stumbling block before him, he will die. Since you did not warn him, he will die for his sin. The righteous things he did will not be remembered, and I will hold you accountable for his blood.
21 But if you do warn the righteous man not to sin and he does not sin, he will surely live because he took warning, and you will have saved yourself."

Now I know someone can try to tell me about old testament vs. new...
or Israel vs. the Church.

But if you did NOT read the passage above then it may be obvious that this truth is not in you.

I spent 13 years in a church building thinking I was part of the body of Christ...
I was not.
But for His Grace...
I alway knew of His Grace but I had never thought I desperately need His Grace.

We all do...don't look passed anyone's sin...especially our own.

Christ didn't

Re: What about Saddleback Sandy and Sally?

gradybauer — Mon, 22 Mar 2010 07:34:43 -0000

Stephen,
I wrote this post after speaking with a friend that is going through this situation. A lesbian couple, very much in love, has started attending their church. They have joint accounts, health-care, insurance policies...the whole thing. They are working through how to respond....it may be theory for most of us but we need to work through it so when God brings them to us we can respond in the correct way.

Re: What about Saddleback Sandy and Sally?

ad2010 — Wed, 17 Mar 2010 12:51:12 -0000

Grady...you have a point...but it is easily countered. Where does the body of Christ draw the line?

Where the Word of God draws the line.

If a someone is completely undressed and enters your sanctuary...what do you do?

Jesus entered His Father's house and for "church leaders" greed turned the tables over.

For hypocritical leaders Jesus called them out in front of the crowd when they questioned healing on the Sabbath.

But to those who are still not "part of the body"...He told the truth..."Go and sin no more"

And that was to a woman caught in the very act.

She saw mercy but Jesus didn't keep quiet so she would think He was "accepting" the act of adultery.

He is truth...accepting people and not accepting their sin is not something we can learn until we hate the sin that is within us first.

Fillet Mignon covered in cat urine is not going to be eaten by anyone...even if they love steak.

Christ did come to destroy the works of the devil and to seek and save those who are lost.

Is there a perfect way to speak the truth in Love.

Christ loved us in that "while" we were yet sinners, He died for us.

God's work is perfect and while we are becoming perfected in Him may we seek to do as He is helping us to be in Him and to continually reach out to others.

Re: What about Saddleback Sandy and Sally?

Tony Whittaker — Wed, 17 Mar 2010 06:18:08 -0000

Several thoughts:
The factor that leads most people to faith is an ongoing relationship with a community of believers, and it takes on average two years (see first research item at InternetEvangelismDay.com/r... ). It would take a community of huge maturity to offer an ongoing unconditional welcome to such a couple. And how does an unconditional (or almost unconditional) welcome fit with the message it would send to, say, the young people in the church. (Of course, I think in practice such a couple would seek out a church of liberal theology in the first place. I know just such a couple in just such a church.)

There are similar hard questions for how to minister to people who have had gender reassignment. I happen to know such a person online, who had unsurprisingly some difficulty in finding a welcoming fellowship. Happily, she did. And, as you ask, she had gender reassignment as a conservative evangelical, after a messed up life, and does not regret the choice.

Re: What about Saddleback Sandy and Sally?

Stephen Young — Sat, 13 Mar 2010 22:00:06 -0000

I like the discussion, but it is all on the level of theory. Does anyone know a lesbian couple that began to follow Jesus and are now believers? A Gay couple? A heterosexual couple... that didn't end up getting married?

Re: there is life beyond the 10/40 window

Seminary — Fri, 12 Mar 2010 09:35:05 -0000

Great post, refreshing and interesting. The passion of the missionaries are unmatched. We at, Reformed Theological Seminary salutes all missionaries who are continuing what they believe in.